Aye so bottom line, we’re stuck with what exists until new formats are forced upon everybody… ¯_(ツ)_/¯

yeah… :(

Raw isn’t a format, it’s supposed to just be unaltered stream from the imager, so every camera model is unique in that regard. But DNG is a way to describe that data so it’s more readable to programs unfamiliar with the specific model. And well, some makers prefer to use their own proprietary models.

ah fair enough, i didn’t know that

Actually AAC is mostly Apple’s format and support for it is pretty great. I’m not super familiar with the details but it sounds like a similar situation as with webp.

is it? i didn’t think any android players supported it apart from specifically apple music? and i’m pretty sure ms’ groove music couldn’t play them^?

It’s not. The web site you’re uploading to has to support it to allow you the upload in the first place, and to process it to make previews or lower-res versions for the web pages or apps.

alright yeah i guess. to be honest i was more talking about using images i’ve made on my own site, or publishers using an image format on their own websites. as for uploading to other sites it’s a complete mess: even tumblr doesn’t allow uploading webp, but it then automatically converts to webp which makes a horrible blurry mess

Do believe me, recently I’ve started converting those I want to keep to mp4 and I’m saving gigabytes.

i wasn’t being sarcastic! i do believe you. and yeah, i’d do the same

It’s not all that well supported in lots of those cases I mention. And where it did get, it only got because Apple has actually billions of devices out there and has the power to make the format default among them with one worldwide update. Yet it still has to convert to jpg when sharing elsewhere by default. That’s how huge the resistance is.

sorry, i was talking about jxl here. i agree heif hasn’t got anywhere; but that is, again, mostly due to licencing issues (unsurprisingly, given it’s apple)

I’m not advocating for these formats specifically (definitely not jpeg2000 haha), but I’m saying licences and royalties aren’t that super important when it comes to how supported something becomes.

Hell look at Apple… Everything is proprietary.

yeah exactly - none of apple’s formats are supported outside of apple devices (and i guess itunes for windows)

Or when it comes to formats, mp3 is still the most widely supported audio format (non-free), and DivX has been the most widely supported video format for much longer than anything else… Also non-free.

that’s a fair point, and i can’t really explain that - i can only assume it’s big for the same reason as gif: it was good enough at the time, and got standardised by cds

Haha hardware camera makers are the slowest dinosaurs when it comes to technology. Took them fucking ages for some to support DNG raw format, and before h264 was already getting grey, most would record videos only in mjpeg.

really? now admittedly i don’t know much about cameras, but i’ve had a couple of filmmaker friends and i was under the impression raw was universally supported

But it’s more about phone cameras anyway. And well with those we’ll only have webp and heif at most, so I guess we have to deal with that anyway.

i’m not sure about that - even google camera doesn’t support webp (i mean, it’s called “web picture”, i think they see it as a web format primarily). i think phone cameras will continue to be solely jpg for a long time

Maybe if Mozilla had not abandoned their FF OS, maybe that would’ve been a camera supporting jpegxl now.

that’d be nice. i do wish mozilla wasn’t so catastrophically mismanaged all around

That’s not how people use images. For an image format to be viable, you need your camera to support it, your gallery app/program to support it, the web sites you upload it to, the messaging platforms you share it through.

yes. i agree. but that’s my exact point. if i make an image then upload it to the internet - the only software that’s involved is on my side (gimp, ps, whatever^[1]) and the browser of the person viewing it. if it was supported in chromium, that’s automatically available in chrome, edge, vivaldi, brave, discord, element, spotify, whatever other chromium-embedded or electron apps you care to name. given the (unfortunate) prominence of electron-based programmes nowadays; that’s good enough for anyone who isn’t a professional, and they’re already fine. fuck it, it has the joint photographic experts group behind it - they’re quite a big name in photography

Oh you’d be surprised… Gaming videos on Steam, screen recordings, porn clips by amateurs, or just random clips, the amount of low-res gifs with 10s of MB in size is crazy.

meh, i haven’t seen any in the past ~5 years apart from ones specifically chosen for that 256 colour æsthetic; but i will believe you

Sure, it’s shitty of Google to drop the support, but from experience I’m still unfortunately 100% sure it wouldn’t have gotten anywhere.

Heck, Apple has been using HEIF for years and that’s a trillion dollar company with a huge market share, and you still get shitton of places where you can’t use it.

it did get places. it has got places. again, it’s very new and is already well supported

jpeg2k failed because of licencing and royalty issues^[2]. heif hasn’t spread because of licencing and royalty issues. ^{in my personal opinion, webp has licencing issues.} png didn’t. jpeg (sort of) didn’t. jxl doesn’t.

but anyways, this isn’t a pro-jxl comment; it’s an anti-webp comment. i used jxl as an example of why webp, and its adoption, is making the web worse even though it’s better than png from a technical standpoint

Sorry, 5 graphics programs isn’t “support”. You need support from the millon mobile apps, web sites and image and web libraries. A format that you can only use by yourself or with a handful professionals is useless in practice.

i gave those because they’re the most pertinent programmes for people dealing with creating & editing images. there are mobile (or at least android) libraries; and web is the issue i’m talking about - it’s hampered by chromium. there are more here if you’re interested.

and i’d say that’s not bad for a format that’s only a few years old

Ed: look at the list of formats supported by XnView

i don’t know what this is supposed to mean. xnview supports jxl

There’s been hundreds of new image formats in the last ~20 years, and none has gotten anywhere.

because png is good. i’m not defending gif or jpeg, they suck. but png is simple, fast to decode, and open by design. there have been better formats, but not paradigm shiftingly better. it may not be the best as an image format, but it is good

Even PNG needed a decade for some things to support it properly, and that one really had a brand new massive use case.

yeah that’s my point, jxl has been adopted faster than png or webp (it was only officially standardised in 2022!)

People use gif to make videos for crying out loud, and bitch about webp all the time, that’s how massive the pushback against new formats is.

i really don’t think many people use gif. most people use gifv or similar (usually webm) without realising it. apart from its very specific use case, gif sucks; so most software automatically converts to something else

Do you really think jpegxl would get anywhere by itself? No, it would be the same as with jpeg2000 and tons of other formats - first supported by a handful of programs, but not used by anyone else and then forgotten.

jpeg2k had major issues other than a lack of support - jxl has deliberately avoided those pitfalls

jpegxl actually has pretty good support - affinity, photoshop, gimp, krita, etc. all support it fine

it’s only chrome/electron that’s holding it back (even firefox supported it until chrome dropped support). i don’t think it’s lazyness

i have no love for gif (hence i use apng), but all the other alternatives are either videos so show controls by default, not widely supported, or webp. i realise webp is objectively the better format for most things, but i still argue it’s existence is a net negative effect

webp may be open (although actually i’d argue it isn’t, the licences for the decoder and the format itself are both very woolly), but as it’s actively contributing to enshittification by holding back truly open formats i’d say that doesn’t really matter

now whilst i know why people like webp, maybe we could stop using formats owned by google…

until jpegxl becomes viable (which it mainly isn’t because it compete[s/d] with webp), lets stick to nice formats not owned by tech giants, like apng^?

at the time; the great suspender (although that’s dead on chrome now too)

project naptha is the only one that has stuck with me since i left chrome, and has no firefox alternative to my knowledge

just going to copy here something i wrote on reddit a few months almost a year ago^[1]

i’ve been using telegram since it was released and …i don’t think i’ll be recommending it to new users anymore

it’s not just this announcement, but in general they seem to be really pushing the web3/blockchain/nft angle; along with sign in with telegram, payments through telegram, they feel like they’re trying to become the western wechat

but as for this in particular; obviously all of those usernames are going to be bought by scammers. why would a user trust them if they’re being bought and sold all the time? and why would a legitimate business buy them if most users won’t trust them? businesses want consistent branding, not ephemeral minutiæ

nobody is thinking “oh yeah, my bank is the best, it’s @bank on telegram” or “i think i’ll switch to a new bank, but i don’t know which. i guess i’ll just message @bank and see what happens” or “i just got a message from @gift! i must have won the lottery!”

plus, according to these messages, they’re taking usernames off users that already used them

most of my contacts are on telegram now, so i’m going to continue using it. but even aside from the encryption and privacy issues, i wouldn’t encourage anyone to switch to telegram

i feel like you’ve missed my point. unless you either have a bloody revolution or go corp-free, you’re not going to win this one. the corporations will notice people doing this and either remove the refund window or raise the prices. they won’t just go “ah well, that seems fair, we’ve earned enough money”. you can justly rage against the machine all you like; you’re just going to make the experience worse for everyone.

In a just world, one more fair to consumers, wire shark wouldn’t have arbitration agreements locked into their TOU, but here we are.

yes they would. that’s the point of contracts. it’s up to you to read the terms of use before you agree to use the service. i’m not going to say the current system is fair to consumers; but the issue isn’t the existence of contracts.

In a just world, one more fair to consumers, there would be a no questions asked return process as a legal right for any online service.

this is dumb. corporations might be earning too much money in your opinion, but demanding that they give away their services is the same problem in the other direction. op used the service, he should pay for it. this is how transactions work.

i’m not going to argue this. arguing on the internet makes me tired (i hope i got this energy across in this comment)

still scummy though. i’m not going to go into the morals of whether social contracts should apply with businesses, but put it this way: if enough people did this, businesses would stop offering refunds; which would screw over those with genuine issues